One Sale Equals Becoming A Professional Photographer

No, not really.

Someone that makes their living with that craft - is a pro.

Otherwise every kid selling lemonade is a pro. Selling a single thing is a hobby, it may validate you but I can't consider anyone a pro because they sold a single thing. By that definition, I could buy it myself, have my mother or friend do it and call myself a pro.

Also a pro does professional quality work, that is a sign of a real pro. Anyone can charge anything, but the end result is all that counts.


----Mike Savad
http://MikeSavad.com

A dubious definition of a professional. If you do not make a living through art You are definitely not a pro, just a amateur.

A "professional" indicates a profession which typically means their main line of work.

An amateur who sells a photo at a craft show is still an amateur.

I worry less about titles and more about creating professional-looking work.

....

Reminds me of these new "astronauts" - the billionaires who buy a ride into space. Compared to real astronauts with years of training, they are nothing more than tourists.

These are valid arguments. And, I agree with all of you for the most part. However, I am personally looking through many FAA sites to see who I can inspire by providing them with a sale. Art should inspire, And as an artist, I wish to inspire others so that their dream (and skills) are elevated. Thank you for your honest feedback and best of luck with your art.

Robert

Haha Edward.

The next level of professionalism: paying instead of getting money !

I'd rather be inspired by creating work buyers want to buy. Not handouts. Not a sale from dear old Mom. Not a sale from friends and family. A sale from a complete stranger who felt a connection to my work.

If you look around FAA for someone to inspire, you might be inspiring someone who gave up long ago and their account is just a ghost portfolio. Not everyone is cut out for success as an artist. Too much competition.

I used to make enough money from photography to live. Wedding and portrait photography. Had a brick and mortar studio. Honestly got burnt out on the entire thing. I also was fortunate to sell a bit of work, photos and articles, for publication. Today I'm chipping away at fine art photography. So the question becomes, once a pro always a pro? Or does my menial sales level delegate me back to amateur level? ;)

Generally you won't inspire people to make a sale. The art should speak for itself and not the nummy feeling people get when buying from someone or something like that.

There are a lot of people here that think they are a pro because they are selling anything. Or they bought an expensive camera and look the part. Or they are really into jargon.

I see some that can convince they are great but aren't. And by definition that is their profession, but I couldn't call them a pro. You can inspire people, but unless you are prepared to buy from them, then it's just a pile of words.

Like if I baked a cookie and sold it, i'm not a pro. If I opened a bake shop and tried to make money from that, then I could call myself a pro. Then of course it depends if you can call yourself successful, which is an entirely different word.


----Mike Savad
http://MikeSavad.com

It's just a marketing term. Use as you see fit.

Kind of like "award winning"

Seems like everyone is an "award-winning XYZ" these days.

I've had more than a few sales and I don't really consider myself a photographer, let alone a pro photographer, just a hobbyist that makes a little money off his hobby. I believe to be considered a pro someone needs to be making a substantial portion of their income from it and they run it like a business.

It is relative to who is making the determination.

For instance, the IRS can and often does make the determination if and when you ever get audited.

They will look at your income and your expenses/deductions and they will make a determination as to rather it is a real business or a hobby business. So no, one sale does not make you a pro. Not in the eyes of the IRS anyway.

That is the IRS's perspective.

On the other hand, I really don't care one way or the other. People can call themselves whatever they want as far as I am concerned.

You lot are really Debbie Downers some days.

Ok let's put it this way... If you think you're a professional, come and speak in this thread.

Or if you agree with the top post.

I need some optimism today through these threads

Cheers.

Amateur is the one who creates from passion (as the etymology of the word explains it), professional is who creates to make a living out of it.
It has nothing to do with the quality.

Too many get hung up on terms. The magazine that publishes my work, contacts me every 2 months to submit photos for upcoming issues. They have a cloud folder for me with my name under a main folder called professional photographers. Does that make me one? I do not feel like I am. I do not make my living off of my images but supplement my income. There have been many professional artists in the past who died broke and unknown, today their work is worth thousands if not more. I believe there is more to being professional than the monetary income we like to associate with that title.

There are times I think I am professional then after reviewing some of my work when I return home, not so much lol.

A sale does bring a smile every single time such pleasure.

And I don't know why but when a stranger buys something I find it more rewarding.

Van Gogh was an amateur most of his life.

The problem comes when you are at a party and someone asks "what do you do for a living?" and you say "I'm a professional photographer." and they say "oh do you have a studio?"

"No"

"Would you shoot my son's wedding?"

"No"

"Have I seen your work in any magazines?"

"No"

"Have you sold any of your work?"

"My mom bought one"

"Oh there is Bonnie, excuse me, I have to ask her something..."

A very interesting thread re definition of pro, becoming pro takes time and training and more time, knock backs, rethinks and lots more. Of course some just have that special something which everyone can see but can't quite put their finger on when trying to describe it, those characters are always an inspiration. Whatever you are creating keep on keeping on your road or, take some time out to hone skills and develop new ones and relaunch your vessel. Be positive creativity is the sky and you don't need a spaceship...

Its not really a downer, its a definition.

I consider a someone a professional when they totally know their stuff. They have the skills to pay the bills and the experience to do it easily. Someone looking at a pro, that person would assume it was easy because they made it look easy.

And profession is what you do and specialize in.

Anyone can call themselves a pro, its just when they are challenged will they run into issues.

And I never do call myself a pro photographer for the reason ed explained - they assume you are either:

1. a wedding photographer
2. You do head shots
3. You are in a gallery (most will never consider you anything unless you are in a gallery)


there are too many definitions of what pro means to people.

Like I can drive really well in a fast car, on a race track i'm a pro. On the street i'm a hooligan.


----Mike Savad
http://MikeSavad.com

When I started doing photography at age 40 (26 years ago) I enjoyed entering contests. I did get a magazine publication right off but that was in the readers photos section. One day I was entering a contest that I usually swept and the guy running it disqualified me because I was a "professional". I was very disappointed I could no longer enter this local nature photography contes,t but pleased that a guy whose work I admired considered me a pro. I decided I was ready to buy a show tent and see how the world likes my photos by entering juried art shows. I definitely didn't consider my self a professional but I could handle a camera very well with nature subjects. I won a whole lot of blue ribbons and then sold the tent because it was too much work.

It has taken a long time but I have finally achieved my goal of making a living doing photography. I had other goals to achieve first but I planned on photography being my retirement job. I don't have a studio and don't need one and don't want one. I don't do many weddings because the last thing I want to do is photograph drunks. In a given week I may be doing a home for sale, an airbnb rental (Airbnb gets me that work) a take out menu ( I do 5 -10 a week, a maternity shoot and a family reunion. I finally have all the equipment I need to do a professional job. I don't have the latest greatest camera but I do have a current full frame Nikon (D750) ad it does a great job and keeps me from sweating out low light and high contrast situations. I don't have the best FF lenses but I have the second best and they are very good. Some even have the gold ring at the front which Nikon reserves for the better lenses.
Over the years my photos have been in just about every major magazine including Better homes and gardens. I have to Nat Geo publications but not the coveted flagship magazine and I am not in the Explorer's Club, which was once a goal. I had a few gallery showings locally and sold nothing. But it was a great honor to have a room of my photos at a local gallery.
I am finally making a comfortable living doing only photography with the help of a SS check. Only after I bought my D750 did I consider myself a pro because I think if you can't show up with a current model camera you probably are not the right guy for the job.

I realize there are amateur photographers out there producing far better images every day then I will ever make. But I don't agree that being a pro has nothing to do with quality. If you can't deliver top quality work you won't get much business. My images are rated by my agents and my clients and if I get anything less than a 5/5 I am upset. Anything less than a 4/5 I get a warning letter. I work under extremely difficult situations outdoors and in restaurants and dark houses and there is a lot of pressure. f you can't produce top quality images no matter what the situation, it is a fail.

The bottom line is despite many sales, publications, winning at juried art shows, and occasional gigs I did not consider myself a real professional until I had all the right gear and got enough work to make a good living. Quality makes a great photographer but to be a pro you have to bring home the cash to make a living as well as deliver quality on demand.

Professional looks impressive on a resume. Professional means you have the credentials and a high level of expertise and a body of work that demonstrates it. And, it is your career.

One image doesn't make you a pro, although one image might be called professional looking.

If someone calls you a professional, then that would be a compliment because they like and respect your body of work.

Making one sale to elevate you to the level of professional? How does that work? Where is that defined? Did you read that somewhere? Becoming a professional by making one sale isn't a magic pill. It doesn't happen overnight. If it were that easy everyone would be. Granted there are gifted artists right out of the box, but a professional has a body of work done over a period of time that is at a very high standard.

I guess I'm jumping on the critical band-wagon here. But, I get what you're trying to do and understand that your intentions are good. Perhaps stated another way you might have gotten a different reaction.

Again, I wish to thank everyone for their thoughts and responses. And, as I stated last night, I agree for the most part with the opinions shared. I suppose I chose my wording poorly. Therefore, please allow me to share my intent. For those of us who love art (all forms and mediums), we strive to inspire, entertain and communicate through our craft. Though we realize that we will never be a published author, our photographs displayed in a museum, magazine or gallery or have the multitude of sales needed to quit our day jobs and survive using only our art, we still dream. We dream that perhaps one day, we, too, can be like so many of you. And, therefore, my point was that if I reviewed different artists work and purchased just one piece, something small and inexpensive, from someone who had not yet had any sales or reached much success, then they - for a moment- would be like you. They would be a paid artist. True, they are not identical to you or your skill and accomplishments. But for that one time, that fleeing moment, they and you shared something, each had a sale of their art. A professional baker will bake 100 cakes that are stunning and each a masterpiece. The hobbyist will also bake a 100 cakes. And though, despite only 1 of those 100 cakes being even arguably as good as the professional baker's work, what a feeling the hobbyist will have knowing that at least once, he shared common ground with his heroes.

I purchased an item from an artist as I wanted to inspire him - to give him hope - to make his dream come alive. That was my intent. And, that I stand upon without regret.

Robert your intentions are noble but we digressed from that. I neglected to say your work is very good. With only 23 images, it may take a while to get a sale. But don't be discouraged. When I first joined here I used to buy note cards from artists who had great work but no sales. I don't do that anymore because I have more cards then I can use now. But do not let a lack of sales make you give up trying. It comes with time. When I did shows. I used to say there is a buyer for every image. Give them a chance to find it.

When I was entering competitions years ago, I was was told that if I had sold my art OR won a major award, I had to enter in the professional catagory. If you say someone is not a 'pro' because they didn't support themselves, then you eliminate a lot of famous artists from the list, starting with Van Gogh....

There are lots of definitions of the word "professional". They can pertain to university degrees, certifications, titles, occupations, etc, but all of them imply that a person does something that's well regarded and money making, often with legally required certifications or licenses. In that sense, someone with a camera who does weddings, ID badge photos, news portraits, etc and makes a living, is a professional. In a past life, I knew people who worked for the Dept of Transportation, shot photos of cracked pavements and rusty bridge rivets and thought of themselves as professional photogs.

I don't know exactly what qualifies one as a professional photographer, much less where the dividing line is between making a sale and making a living, but I'd want to have a consistent track record before I made the claim. It could be weddings, sunsets, creative editing jobs, gallery shows or whatever, but wouldn't use that word until I could point to enough of a resume that I would not hesitate to lay it out clearly rather claim professional status because, "FAA sold a cell phone cover (or whatever) and I got a commission".

In my own case, I don't use the word professional except for my former salary making occupation, which was not in the arts. I know lots of people in the Baltimore arts scene who sell something now and again, sometimes show up in a gallery, have a home studio and only a few of them could consider it to be an occupation. I know that I'm not a professional, but it makes good party chat. What I am, however, is a person that has sold some images and is flattered that somewhere, somebody has my stuff on their wall or mug or phone case. That's OK, but unless sales pick up really seriously (I don't expect that), I'd rather thing of myself as a dabbler who did better than I expected than a pro who doesn't make a living.

Selling here something anything cannot be regarded a criteria of 'professionalism'...imho. And unfortunately the common linguistic usage distorted the true meaning of the words of 'amateurism' and 'professionalism'. I have seen people having a gallery of over 10k images, collected from all over the internet (mostly images of famous people and actors) and making frequent sales...no one can convince me that is 'professionalism'.

I am taking photos for 4 decades...however I have a profession (totally different domain, not even related) for 2 decades...so again in my consideration 'amateurism' and 'professionalism' cannot be regarded as a criteria of quality.

Just for the record I am proud of being an amateur photographer, with or without sales.

The one thing that distinguishes an amateur from a professional is that one gets money for the work while the other does not. In this regard, I'm in agreement with you Robert.

OBT. I'm honestly not overly fond of the Pro title as my income from "fine art" is sporadic at best. I have a friend that I've helped with her photography a bit and spend some time out and about the local State Park with her towards that end. If we're approached by a "friendly stranger" she always states that she's a amateur but tells them I'm a pro. Honestly, I find it a bit amusing.

While it would be nice to make a living doing fine art and/or editorial photography, I think that's a very hard thing to accomplish in the current world. Cameras are getting better and better at doing the bulk of the work and now AI is coming to the post processing world making one of the off-setting parts of photography more and more accessible to the novice. Probably the main things that set the pro, semi-pro and serious amateur apart from the masses these days is subject choice and composition. So much of the rest can be done by digital processors these days. Plus video is becoming more and more the media of choice, or so it seems. The radio star may not be then only thing that video kills!

It seems to me that most of the photographers making a living from nature, landscape and wildlife work these days are greatly dependent on workshops and monetizing their YouTube channels about photography.

Hello there Bob, real good to hear from you, aye, the Pro title can be a tricky one. That's good that you are passing on your artistry to another and on the days when we aren't working alone, another pair of eyes and a second look can make for real fine company.

Aye, the current world of image making machines and software and apps and then where to present the work is ever expanding.
Ah, subject choice and composition, now your talking, that's a darned good analysis to describe the whole thing.

Oh yes, the radio star and the video!, I recall that song very well, heard it first on a radio!. We didn't have a video recorder until a bit later. We had a three channel tv, but we never thought of what were seeing on TV as the same as what we were seeing when we fired up the video recorder. My golly, Videos were chunky beasts and they were made of tape, looking back, holy moly. They were pretty good though, but I guess they won't be coming back like vinyl.
We called our radio the "wireless", in terms of that name that little thing was away ahead of it's time !, Everybody had a radio. Not a phone.

Anyway, I digress, as I do when I type. I type just as I am thinking as though I were talking to someone in real time, because I grew up when words were spoken not typed and so when I type, it's always appears to be far to long!.

Anyway, you are quite right, we must keep an eye on that YouTube/(4K or whatever it is nowadays)/crossover, with photography. Look after yourself.

Hello David B,

Bloviating, that's a great word.

Burst out laughing when I saw that, because, if I am a Bloviator, that's brilliant news, I can now with pride adopt the title, if I ever launch and promote that Professional Hot Air Balloon Ride company, I always dreamed of. Thanks

The word "professional" actually means nothing today. In the past it meant an occupation requiring a college degree and some sort of examination; you had to be "admitted" into a "profession".

Maybe today "professional" means about making your living from something - or at least really needing that income.

I sell a few but when someone asks if I'm a professional I say "no".

But I agree with the OP: that first sale is a very big deal. Even a sincere compliment can be very motivating.

Hello Jim H, maybe have a look at David Manlove's post and many many others.

Clearly, this word, "professional", seems to be a lot more than, "a word than means nothing to anyone"...

All the best.

Also do have a truck ? Do you know anything about paint for a Mopar light bar ?,
not so much to do with fine art but I see a lot of you folks know about this
and just wondered,

What it has is no enforceable qualifications, unlike a doctor or lawyer. Everybody wants to be a professional. Sometimes words "escape". Professional is one of them. It's just an ordinary adjective now, as in a professional driver or a professional retail shelf stocker.

Very interesting thread...ultimately one question still persists...Why are some so obsessed with the 'professional' title??...like it or not the term 'professional' is connected to money.

There's a saying that goes something like this: "You aren't paying me for my service, you're paying me for my experience."

There's also a story about an experienced mechanic who gets an old diesel engine running again by tapping on it with a hammer and then handing the customer a big bill. The surprised customer asked, "Why so much, you just tapped it with a hammer?!" The mechanic replied, "Because I know where to tap."

The old standard for professional was doctor, lawyer or engineer.

Other people using the word are glorifying themselves for public consumption.

Professional actually means highly trained.

The Olympics and Universities played with the word in applying it to sports. Amateurs v professionals was just a tool. It was not like the Ancient Greeks were paying people millions of drachma even in relative terms in the BC era.

adding the IRS was founded in 1913 I believe and furthered money being a stipulation for filing your business taxes.

Those who use the title very loosely are just marketing themselves. It is a nonsense title.

Dave Bridburg
Bridburg.com
Post Modern Gallery

In general I never heard anyone actually be called a professional, and when they call themselves that it looks weird. Usually its in reference to something, he is a professional snake handler.

Usually they are called - mechanic, chef, photographer etc. But when described they will say - he is a real professional, or does pro work. As opposed to a hobbyist.

But you can't make a business card calling yourself a professional mechanic, because that looks fake. Its like referring to yourself as a human in normal conversation, so no knows you are really something else.


----Mike Savad
http://MikeSavad.com

Mike,

I hear you on the business cards.

Similarly I am going to get some painting done in my condo. I was looking at an ad in the local tag sale newspaper here for a painter. He has his ad up every week. My mom was kind of shrewd about him. What painter needs to run an ad every week? Why wasn't word of mouth good enough? Is he botching so many jobs he always needs new clients?

Dave Bridburg
Bridburg.com
Post Modern Gallery

Btw..do you know what is the oldest profession?

The oldest profession.... Grave digger.


----Mike Savad
http://MikeSavad.com

David, he probably got a good deal from the paper publisher for running a weekly ad.

"The oldest profession.... Grave digger."

My bet is that by the time some people use the grave digger they've availed themselves of the other oldest profession. Ya gotta be still alive to do that.

Having spent a big part of my life in the HR world, I do know that almost everybody who asserts expertise in work wants to be called a professional, from top to bottom. There's a sort of rank order, about the whole thing...professional, paraprofessional, trade, skilled, unskilled, labor, etc. and it's a matter of pride to be called a professional, even though hardly anybody knows exactly what it means, unlike M.D. or something like that, where there's a formal designation and a license. It's like "skilled", a word that's not specific.

In regard to photographers, whether it's selling a single phone case or a long career with books, web sites and fame, it's still just a word like "great" or "famous" or "accomplished", which coupled with photographer, sounds good.

Joy,

Probably did, but the ad has been in there for years. Treating people as a one off is probably more like it.

Dave Bridburg
Bridburg.com
Post Modern Gallery

"Paraprofessional' ??...how about 'uber-professional' then?... 'semi-professional' I've heard of...

Someone working with a professional. Meaning a doctor, lawyer or engineer.

Paraprofessional. Quite literally.

If you ask a professional at least some of them will tell you they are uber.

Dave Bridburg
Bridburg.com
Post Modern Gallery

Then we suppose to be 'para-uber-professionals' I guess.

After years in the fishing industry as an apprentice baiting fish hooks does one become a “master baiter”?

Jester,


GO STAND IN THE CORNER.....

Can we please stop beating this dead horse? For Robert's purposes, a "professional" is one that sells artwork here, regardless of education or background. There MAY be professionals that DON'T SELL HERE, are members, but sell elsewhere and are still professionals.

Rich

I can't believe this discussion has gone off the rails like this. From skimming the replies, it seems that most comments are preoccupied with the semantics of "professional." Quite a few responses are sounding like "you can't play with us- we're in our own league."

I would think the focus here would be his intent- support each other, give encouragement to other artists- including himself. In case anyone here forgot to actually read his last paragraph, he is also hoping for a sale.

For those of you considering yourself professional, please remember FAA is a place for artists to grow. There's a learning curve, especially if you have no formal education. Thankfully I have an art degree, but I don't know anything about marketing, which is just as important.

For the sake of my own sanity, I am grateful to not depend on my art alone to make a living. It is my stress relief.

Actually looking at the OP's art I'd figure he has sold for years. He is just new here.

He may only be playing around with the Debbie Downers in anticipation. He'd be right.

Dave Bridburg
Bridburg.com
Post Modern Gallery

Rich, yup, let the horse RIP. Now, in the main! news, the delivery of wood preserver came a day early, kinda screws up my excuse for not getting on with the job now LOL! . 30-40 hours! a week, Rich, don't work to hard man, be good to yourself, G.

Hello, Expressions By Stephanie, OBT replies were skimmed too and not read properly by a few. In terms of who considers themselves to be a professional, folks made wrong assumptions but kept on replying, regardless!. You mention, "Mr Richard Stephen's intent" , that was the area I focused on also in each message, 4 days ago, then 3 days ago, then 2 days ago and again last night. The use of the term professional was part of Richard's question.

I intimated the view that folks seemed to be agreeing it was all done and dusted 4 days ago!, but still the comments/wee replies came. (I reply to try to be fair and so as not to seem rude). Well Stephanie, you are quite right there is learning curve here and about engaging in threads also!. I am new here. Likewise on the book of faces and the bird noise thing :). Congratulations on your Art Degree also, takes a great deal of work and commitment. Wishing you well, G/OBT Imaging.

Ultimately I have to agree with Mike. This thread was nothing else from the beginning than a disguised self-advertisement.

This debate probably is a never ending story...